honda0105
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Tallahassee
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 6:11:14 AM
as for mileage, I already get 36 mpg with mine.
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honda0105
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 6:10:38 AM
hmmmm... what's the average "curb weight" of the driver / passengers? Maybe that needs to be slimmed down too? In many cases, that would improve efficiency a great deal.
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 2:39:19 AM
=> Your driving skills(or mine) are still not a factor in this equation <=
They absolutely ARE. I don't know why this isn't getting through but you're talking about the results of a *collision*. Driving is not collision. You don't buy a car in order to have a collision. You're plugging in a worst-that-could-happen assumption into an activity which is by its own name "accident" an aberration that is highly unlikely (my car could catch on fire too; does that mean I should drive around in a fireproof suit?).
The article is not about driving, no. But it's also not about collisions. Yet there are the inevitable naysayers (and they're in every single news thread, regardless the topic) who come in with doom and gloom to suggest in their ignorance that a lighter weight means less safe. And I'm going to put that myth down every time it comes up, unless we're talking about demolition derbies, because that's the only playing field on which it makes any sense.
As far as our bloated national carscape, and it is severely bloated, the fault can be laid at the feet of all those consumers who didn't bother to stop and think any deeper than the heavy-head wags in here. Nobody forced them to buy those inverted bathtubs on wheels; they just didn't bother to stop and think rationally and instead lapped up whatever the Marlboro Man on TV told them to buy. That happens a lot. And it's why we find SUVs sitting on their roofs. They're trucks driven by people not used to trucks. It's overkill, it's waste, and it's making the roads in general more hazardous. And as yet another poster pointed out, if you have size disparities, once you get rid of the oversized ones you get rid of the disparity. But as long as there is a disparity, it's all the more reason to be equipped to AVOID, not JOIN them in their race to oblivion. A small, nimble responsible car is more necessary now than ever.
So we're both off the topic of the article, which is about materials, but as long as anyone still wants to sell this myth about "bigger = safer", I'll just have to set it straight, and again reiterate what another poster noted:
=> Trucks and sport utes have high rates of accidents compared to most vehicles, and are especially high in the single vehicle accidents and rollovers - categories that have high injury/fatality rates (because it doesn't matter what size your vehicle is when it hits a bridge abutment or light standard or large tree).
This idea of weight=safety is really a bass-akwards recycle of the old notion of "road-hugging weight" - a notion that while popular, was also in defiance of basic physics. <=
Thanks, this was a good discussion.
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 2/7/2012 2:43:46 AM EST]
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LeftLane1
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 2:24:14 AM
The scenario was an "unavoidable" collision.
Note: collision, not accident. In the event of...
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LeftLane1
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 2:20:46 AM
I am now and was ONLY discussing Vehicle v Vehicle IN a collision. Your driving skills(or mine) are still not a factor in this equation, you are still arguing an different point.
I myself can argue that as I drive more than you do, that is not the point of what we were talking about. Americans choose to drive larger vehicles, the average size & weight went up, it is IN THE ARTICLE even.
You are talking about driving, the article is not about driving, it is materials, size and weight, construction.
You want to make it a about driving only. We can start a Driving thread if you want, you are on your own agenda, and your mind is closed to your own opinions, I hope you can always avoid that accident.
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sluggopyle
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 2:07:46 AM
But you're still working on a fallacy, LeftLane. Maybe I didn't spell out this part enough, but your whole position assumes the accident has already happened. It hasn't. And it needn't. And if you're in a vehicle that gets you out of it, it won't. That's the whole part you seem to keep missing.
So as far as big versus small (whatever we might mean by that; I don't consider either of my cars "small"), bigger and bulkier means less able to avoid a collision, which means *more* likely to experience an accident. You can't repeal the laws of physics. And with all due respect to our police, I don't think they're an authority on driving techniques, and as far as what vehicles they prefer, let's be honest -- they don't have much to choose from as far as automakers selling what they require.
This isn't speculation or proxy experiences from my family; it's direct experience from myself, plus simple common sense about the laws of inertia. Trying to base an idea of "safety" on a death-wish scenario that hasn't happened is just an appeal to fear. That's not rational.
We're not talking about surviving accidents. We're talking about driving. That's what cars are for.
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 2/7/2012 2:17:35 AM EST]
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LeftLane1
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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2012 2:04:33 AM
sluggopyle, Your Ego about Your Driving skills is blinding you to the point.
I (and others) already conceded the point that IF you can avoid a collision, that is always your best outcome. If you do not, or cannot, you are not going to fare well, as safe as you think you are, against many vehicles twice your size.
It is not speculation on an incident that has not happened, I already told you this was from experience that YOU admit you dont have. I have over 30+ years of accident investigations in my family at the State Police level. I have seen aftermath myself. Your philosophies & illogical speculation are nice, very convincing, you argue a good point, but thats it, your opinion only.
The Police drive Ford Crown Victorias & Chevrolet Tahoes as pursuit vehicles, larger vehicles, and the higher center of gravity passed the Michigan state patrol testing and across the nation. These are larger vehicles preferred by law enforcement who do dangerous driving that can result in collisions. I tell you what, you sit still and I will crash one these Tahoes into you at a intersection, lets see who gets the better end of the deal. (The driving skill was not part of the equation in the scenario, it was vehicle v vehicle).
I already know that you are going to continue argue your opinion, because you just love your little cars (and good for you) but the real world results dont favor your opinion.
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ArmydudeNC
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2012 6:55:50 AM
Less weight equals better mileage.
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anascom
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Hamilton
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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2012 12:45:12 AM
interesting topic and members' comments!
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:12:59 PM
=> Avoiding a collision = winning.
Safety should trump weight, etc.
"I've had encounters with a couple of F150s" -so sluggopyle, You have been in at least one or more Traffic Collisions with a Ford F150s??? <=
Nope. Never. I drive at least 20-30,000 miles a year these days, well over a million miles total, and have been in a lot of situations. Didn't win every time, but won all the big ones as described --because I keep myself in vehicles that can handle it. It's a jungle out there-- why would I want to drive a hippo when I can drive a gazelle?
But to base one's safety philosophies on an extremely unlikely scenario, and then pretend one has no control over that scenario, is just defeatist and unrealistic. And frankly I have to wonder why some wags have to bend over backward to find that conclusion they went looking for.
=> A Saturn,etc that DOES NOT AVOID the collision, or never sees it coming, will not survive as good as a F150 twice it's weight, size and height. <=
Pure speculation on an incident that has not happened, and dependent on the smaller vehicle not responding. It also fails to take into account the built-in crash protection of the (any) smaller vehicle (see the SmartCar video). But allow the smaller vehicle to respond (as in the real world) and you get me, riding into the sunset while the F150 scratches his head wondering what just happened. Put another F150 or SUV in place of the Saturn, and you get the ambulance.
This is the fallacy that refuses to die: CRASH ratings are not SAFETY ratings. Safety is not a crash; safety is AVOIDING a crash. Safety has nothing to do with how it handles impact, unless you're driving in a demolition derby where the whole point IS impact. But that's not even what driving is and it's not what a vehicle is. And there's the fallacy. It's a classic Appeal to Fear. It's irrational and illogical.
Driving is not about passively sitting like a lump in the middle of the road with a bullseye on one's back and one's hands tied, but about actively controlling one's destiny. That's why we call it a "driver".
People need to get up off their lazy assets to take control over their own actions and stop sitting back like passive wimps with shells around them. You judge a car on the basis of what it does every day with every action when you need that action: handling, braking, steering response, cornering, centre of gravity -- not what passively possibly could happen in an unrealistic situation that will probably never happen at all.
And sacrificing all that capability in the interest of driving a tank makes the accident MORE, not less, likely.
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 2/5/2012 12:22:00 PM EST]
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nb52
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Grand Rapids
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 8:31:54 AM
You can lose your head sliding under an 18 wheeler,too. Pay attention.
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comprof
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Houston
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 4:15:27 AM
LeftLane1: I agree.
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tomok
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Portland
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 3:19:19 AM
The lighter weight the vehicle, the higher the MPG.. My ’79 Civic was rated for 32MPG but easily got 34MPG and more, city driving. What do Civics’ get nowadays with their heavier vehicles and body styles? Some people need Jenny Craig or some serious weight loss therapy or intervention. Bigger is Not always better in vehicle or ‘body’ size.
It does Not matter what size of the vehicle is, Produce and ‘drive’ vehicles with high MPG, are very reliable, have a ‘reasonable’ cost and a good ‘value’ for the money.
The price of fuel at the pump is too high!
12/22/2012!
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LeftLane1
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 2:53:26 AM
Avoiding a collision = winning.
Safety should trump weight, etc.
"I've had encounters with a couple of F150s" -so sluggopyle, You have been in at least one or more Traffic Collisions with a Ford F150s???
A Saturn,etc that DOES NOT AVOID the collision, or never sees it coming, will not survive as good as a F150 twice it's weight, size and height.
That is the point: Taking nothing from Your Skills or proper tires, etc on your particular smaller car, sluggopyle.
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TelsaOR
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Oregon
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:51:47 AM
Interesting.
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Hoporrene
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Mississippi
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:15:59 AM
safety should outweigh all the options
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:11:16 AM
=> F150s, Rams, Suburbans, Hummers or Larger cars (and often luxury cars) are going to win if in an accident with the Saturn mentioned below, or many of the average very small econo rides, I would say Smartcars too... <=
Depends on what you mean by "winning".
I've had encounters with a couple of F150s. Both made moves involving veering left from my right at moderate to high speeds. Exactly BECAUSE I was in the Saturn, I was able to slalom around them and avoid what should have been messy accidents -- without impact, without a scratch.
I would say I was the "winner" in those encounters.
And I would have had no chance of winning had I been driving the same thing they were, because a vehicle like that just couldn't handle it. (and by the way the Saturn ads of those years (early '90s) often highlighted how well they protected their occupants... in a crash).
Then there are the SUVs sitting on their roofs I've driven by, victims of their own centres of gravity so ridiculous that they couldn't handle a simple maneuver. "I've rolled over and I can't get up!"
<< See this car to the left? This is a whole different level. As good as the Saturn handles, the Mini makes it look like a Buick. THAT is safety. They look like tires, but they're rails. Anyone who drives this car into an accident is just not paying attention.
These wags endlessly whining about 'oh lord, what happens in a crash' amaze me. Why do you want to have a crash in the first place? Because if you drive a Hippomobile, that's exactly what you're setting yourself up for.
Some people are such passive wimps. Wake up and take control of your own driving. Leave the SUVs where they belong -- on the dealer's lot.
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 2/5/2012 12:19:15 AM EST]
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LeftLane1
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:10:45 AM
I drive on the freeways, commute across town. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Smartcar on the local freeways/interstates around here.
(IRONY: A Smartcar ad is on the screen in the window above at the moment I am typing this)
If I lived downtown & worked downtown, had to park it & a very short commute for example, and never had much highway travel (no freeway), I might consider it...
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kgbellman
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Ann Arbor
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:05:06 AM
Good for mileage, but how safe?
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LeftLane1
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:04:45 AM
I dont care what you say, I have a family with law enforcement members, so they are working alot of these accident scenes.
F150s, Rams, Suburbans, Hummers or Larger cars (and often luxury cars) are going to win if in an accident with the Saturn mentioned below, or many of the average very small econo rides, I would say Smartcars too...
Not to mention Commerical Trucks...
Safer materials can help this equalize factor to a point, but size will still matter. Another factor could be collision avoidance, better handling, stopping but often the econo-rides, unless owner enhanced, do come with top notch safety & handling like higher dollar vehicles. So they wont most likely be cheaper and safer even if lighter made.
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Mowerman08
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Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:04:08 AM
Weight watchers :)
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RAKARWOWSKI
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2012 12:01:06 AM
We all should be driving micro cars like the T25.
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kgbellman
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Ann Arbor
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:54:06 PM
Good for mileage, but how safe?
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LeftLane1
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:46:52 PM
I would agree that some smaller & cheaper models are very plastic & aluminum, plenty light...
But the AVERAGE Auto is Larger based on WHAT we are buying now which is SUVs and Larger Trucks.
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:46:17 PM
=> as long as lighter does not mean it wont last as long <=
It shouldn't. My 19-year-old 2500-pound Saturn (made of fiberglas) is on the verge of 400,000 miles.
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Kmankeith
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Rhode Island
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:46:00 PM
Who cares what they are made of as long as safty is not compromised
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DerHahn
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:45:21 PM
"If today’s powertrains were fitted to cars as light as the Chevettes and Civics of yore, the average fuel economy of cars sold in the US would be as high as 37 mpg in 2012."
would be interesting to see one of the original compacts with one of the newer engines. what would the mileage be now with the variable timing and other advancements?
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:44:55 PM
=> It the Federal government would quit interfering with the market, the consumers and the automobile manufacturers, oil developers, etc. would ALL get along just fine. <=
Read the post just before yours. The "market" is what brought on the ridiculous scourge of SUVs, with the results LeftLane deftly articulated.
Back to Clermont40Miles:
=> Motorcycles are very maneuverable. But they lose when they crash. Same for lighter vehicles as mandated by the know it all government. <=
Now you've shifted your entire basis of reasoning. You started with the myth of "More deaths will likely result from foil or plastic shells crumpling without dissipating much crash energy" and suddenly now you're on to governments.
No government controls the laws of physics. Here's an excellent analysis from earlier in the thread:
=> why is it that European accident and fatality rates per million miles driven have been consistently lower than American rates for 50+ years that it's been tracked? That, despite the fact(really, because of)Euro's drive significantly smaller, lighter vehicles, and have higher speed limits. Perhaps its because physics don't tell no lies - heavier vehicles are harder to stop or change direction in, making them more likely to BE in accidents in the first place.
The best accident protection is accident avoidance. Trucks and sport utes have high rates of accidents compared to most vehicles, and are especially high in the single vehicle accidents and rollovers - categories that have high injury/fatality rates (because it doesn't matter what size your vehicle is when it hits a bridge abutment or light standard or large tree).
This idea of weight=safety is really a bass-akwards recycle of the old notion of "road-hugging weight" - a notion that while popular, was also in defiance of basic physics. <=
Don't confuse crash ratings with safety ratings. They're two opposite things.
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TIGERPAW46
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Florida
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:44:16 PM
OH BOY MORE PLASTIC TOY CARS! So we can produce even more plastics from even more oil which we are suppose to be using less of. Actually it doesn't matter anyway when it comes to the price of oil. The USA has drasticly decreased our oil consumption these past years and all they do is raise the price to the point they take in the same amount of money, or more, for selling less oil than they were before.
Full size vehicles in the 50-60's weighed 5,000 lbs where the same models, though actually smaller sized, now weigh less than or around 3,000 lbs.
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12mpgnavigator
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Seattle
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:43:03 PM
as long as lighter does not mean it wont last as long
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SammyAdams
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Tallahassee
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:37:21 PM
I thought just the opposite. Cars seem to be made from beer cans compared to the '60's and '70's with fuel efficiency gains being made from weight reduction. It the Federal government would quit interfering with the market, the consumers and the automobile manufacturers, oil developers, etc. would ALL get along just fine.
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LeftLane1
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:34:29 PM
"average vehicle’s curb weight increased 26% between 1980 and 2006"
AVERAGE is the key word, It is not that the cars are all that heavier, they actually are not heavier compared to cars pre-80's by a longshot. Some CARS are actually lighter or about the same in many cases actually.
What it is: We have fallen in love with SUV's of all sizes from CRVs to Suburbans, and Clubcab/Extended Cab Pickups which almost didn't exist in the 80's at all, we have CHOSEN larger vehicles. Less compact pickups exist in the market now too, the majority are Full-size now, the Japanise were 100% compact then and majority Fullsize or almost fullsize now. Consumers have selected these.
This hurt GM when we had the first gas scare, because demand for Tahoes, Suburbans and Silverado Trucks was so big, they converted some car plants over to make more, then the gas spike suddenly stalled sales without much advance warning. The credit crisis then hit also, which made these more expensive vehicles become harder to finance then too. This is want happened to GM, but it was market driven.
[Edited by: LeftLane1 at 2/4/2012 11:36:26 PM EST]
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Prodaddy
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Houston
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:32:06 PM
Sounds like a good idea
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jrsva
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Virginia
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:31:39 PM
A lot of the weight is unnecessary; cars are just getting bigger. Our 2010 Subaru Forester is bigger and heavier than our 1981 Subaru GL was, yet it gets better mileage. I would love to be able to get a brand new GL fitted with a modern powertrain.
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egd
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:29:51 PM
safer???
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pnivens
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:28:30 PM
The smaller, lighter they are the less damage they'll do to my truck when they run a red light.
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WinderGuy
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Georgia
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:27:16 PM
Ok
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CISA
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Orange County
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:22:59 PM
and if cars were made for 2 people, like the American Motors Geo, mileage would go up! Astounding!
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mfeldstein
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Ottawa
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:22:49 PM
One of these days they'll take a serious look at rice paper.
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monieet
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California
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:22:48 PM
Ok
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my2002m
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Tulsa
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:15:46 PM
Our vehicles do need to loose a lot of weight.
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RedRam2005
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San Antonio
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:13:15 PM
How many more injuries and deaths will result from the change?
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:12:24 PM
=> The smart car demo points out that rapid deceleration while not colapsing the passenger compartment would in all likelehood killed the occupants. Larger heavier vehicles in the same situatin will not slow down as quickly, thus causing less damage to the occupants. <=
Then you ignored both the video and the laws of physics, because that's not what they said at all. And this is how mindless myths get started.
Regardless how big or small the vehicle, hitting an immovable barrier full-on at 70mph stops ANY object immediately, and that lurch is what Top Gear notes will probably kill you. Doesn't matter what you're driving in that situation or how many air bags soften the blow.
The point of that crash test was that the car did *not* fold up like the mythmongers among us imagine; it protected the dummy driver BEYOND the point where inertia interruption alone would bring death.
No, larger heavier vehicles don't "not slow down as quickly". That's absolutely absurd.
RedRam: => How many more injuries and deaths will result from the change? <=
A negative number.
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 2/4/2012 11:16:09 PM EST]
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sammy518
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Austin
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:11:44 PM
ok
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CAD69
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Milwaukee
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:09:35 PM
I'd like to see the crash test data!
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tippybuddy
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Ontario
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:09:18 PM
I feel safer in a heavy car..
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DancingDee
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Gary
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:08:48 PM
Not new.
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MustangRacing
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Virginia
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:07:41 PM
More plastic.
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us4usa
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:06:44 PM
Soon the weight of a family will be more then the car???
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HFAJR0034
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New Mexico
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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2012 11:05:24 PM
good 4 them
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