GasBuddy Blog

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: Canada politics > Topics	Add to favorite topics Post New Topic

Author	Topic: Alberta oil sands massive cleanup	Topic is locked Back to Topics

galah Champion Author Ontario Posts:1,698 Points:27,060 Joined:Mar 2007	Message Posted: Dec 14, 2008 2:09:02 AM Ignore galah Report Abuse Heard report regarding the incredibly huge toxic lakes in Alberta generated by the refineries. Unbelievable amount of highly contaminated water in holding ponds.Now the problem is being addressed as to what to do with it.Cost of cleanup is going to be huge.But where is the money coming from.That massive windfall the oil sands generated most likely already been allocated elsewhere.But it is the people living in the surrounding area that have most to be worried about.US started to boycot the oil sands product since it is so dirty and waste a pain to eliminate,What is your thoughts on this rather serious subject.

galah

Champion Author
Ontario

Posts:1,698
Points:27,060
Joined:Mar 2007

Message Posted: Dec 14, 2008 2:09:02 AM

Ignore galah Report Abuse

Heard report regarding the incredibly huge toxic lakes in Alberta generated by the refineries. Unbelievable amount of highly contaminated water in holding ponds.Now the problem is being addressed as to what to do with it.Cost of cleanup is going to be huge.But where is the money coming from.That massive windfall the oil sands generated most likely already been allocated elsewhere.But it is the people living in the surrounding area that have most to be worried about.US started to boycot the oil sands product since it is so dirty and waste a pain to eliminate,What is your thoughts on this rather serious subject.

REPLIES (newest first)Ignore Short Messages

Smiles77 Champion Author Vancouver Posts:1,862 Points:150,660 Joined:Jan 2003	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2009 6:01:14 PM Ignore Smiles77 Report Abuse Gouged, you are right, drilling doesn't equate to finding oil. Doing seismic research enables an oil company to greatly increase the probability of finding oil. Siesmic technology has greatly increased over the years enabling oil companies to find oil where they weren't able to in years past. There is still oil in the ground that has not been tapped into. Along with that, is new techniques in extracting oil, ie drilling in shale. There are new methods being used where they are now able to extract oil and gas from shale. Oil is still down there, all you have to do is find it!
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 20, 2009 12:30:32 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse Certainly, but drilling doesn't necessarily equate to finding, and my guess is that throughout the world, as yet undiscovered sources of oil/gas are virtually nonexistent..except perhaps the polar regions...and even then. I believe something like 10 of the worlds top 14 oil companies are state owned (needs verification and Im too lazy right now) but these were nationalized coz the huge profits being made were wanted by the state, vs a handful of private executives, for what has become a societal "necessity". I really think Trudeau was right to try to create a national oil company, and that Mulroney was wrong to sell it back to private american interests. Remember oil was FIRST discovered in CANADA not in Texas, and up until about the 1960's we actually had Cdn oil companies.
Happyherman Champion Author Calgary Posts:18,912 Points:1,127,480 Joined:Apr 2002	Message Posted: Mar 16, 2009 4:45:00 PM Ignore Happyherman Report Abuse You got it right HR. All companies will head for the places that provide the best chance of getting the largest, "Return on Investment". It's a very basic business principle.
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Mar 11, 2009 9:07:49 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse gouged, that's true about gas prices - now the story is gas prices have nothing to do w/ oil prices - LOL (now that oil prices are way down)...that IS partially true now that gasoline is traded on the stock market like oil, making their trading independent of each other...and then there are the oil companies w/ refineries - they shut in production when people stopped driving as much which created higher demand which they then used as an excuse to raise the prices - given that they control the supply, I laugh when they say "demand has gone up" - actually, supply has been reduced - deliberately...then again, if I had a refinery, I would do the same thing - why incur costs producing more than you can sell? At least everyone reducing their driving made enough of a difference to be noticed by the oil companies... Re: AB - what the oil companies did in 2006/2007 was slash their budgets originally bound for development in AB & divert it elsewhere - instead of drilling for natural gas in AB, they're drilling in BC, TX & OK, and for oil they're drilling in SK, MT & ND...those provinces/states made their way to Calgary one after another after AB announced the new royalty regime & offered huge incentives to get the investment coming their way, each desperate to get oil & gas activity going again - people in OK & TX sure noticed the sudden influx of activity - been a long time since anyone bothered to drill in either state...same w/ MT, SK & BC...
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 11, 2009 8:53:01 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse WEll HRT- I still maintain the oil companies just don't have that many options.. I just dont think there ARE any worthwhile oil deposits in BC, ON or elsewhere, maybe they might find something in SK, but doubtful, also can't seem them finding much in the lower 48 either...so again they can huff and puff, and not drill for awhile, but eventually they will HAVE to come back. Right now, they're reducing production and jacking up the prices to extreme levels, over a dollar in some MTL locations with world oil at about 44$..that means more than double their usual usurious robbery. I bet we'll see oil industry Q1 profits at extreme highs.
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Mar 11, 2009 2:04:58 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse gouged, it's not about whether it hurts their profit margins - it's about the fact it hurts AB when other provinces/states take lower royalties & the oil companies take their business there instead of AB in order to maintain their profits - result: BC, SK, MT, ND, TX & OK benefitting from significantly increased activity, virtually no drilling in AB...no drilling = no production = no royalties (higher or otherwise)...the provinces/states compete for oil company business & AB (formerly the most competitive) is no longer competitive... To take that equation a little farther: No royalties = no expected billion dollar surplus for Q1 2009 (which Stelmach borrowed against last yr) = deficit (spending more than we have) = debt... On the news this morning - Stelmach is going to change the law in AB which prevents the gov't from running deficits...AB is going back into debt... 1 more thing: I was at the U of Calgary yesterday - is there any part of the university that is NOT sponsored by oil companies?? You can't turn a corner without seeing an oil company logo mounted on the wall... [Edited by: HRTrucklet at 3/11/2009 2:08:46 PM EST]
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 11, 2009 1:45:12 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse MadLaker- you got what I meant by the rhetorical question about where the gov't gets "its" money... from the taxpayer As for royalties, the oil companies have a bargain in Canada, and Stelmachs slight increase doesn't hurt their profit margin at all. With little oil left to be found worldwide it is not they who have the bargaining power. MOST of the oil industries around the world are nationalized..something like 10 of 14 of the biggest. Meanwhile, with world oil at around 45$ a barrel- for what it pretty much a necessity, government should do something about abusive profit levels of oil industry! Mulrony ..still singing for the colonel...should never have sold off PetroCan back to the (US) private sector.
Happyherman Champion Author Calgary Posts:18,912 Points:1,127,480 Joined:Apr 2002	Message Posted: Mar 10, 2009 11:29:01 PM Ignore Happyherman Report Abuse I am tired of all this talk of the oil sands. If it is so bad then why were we not hearing so much about it when everyone wanted the oil? I am tired of all this environmental crap. I remember when logging was stopped because of some spotted owls. Later on they showed them some porno movies and they mated like crazy!! Yeh just kidding.
herbiepopnecker Champion Author British Columbia Posts:13,621 Points:2,510,230 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 10, 2009 10:11:13 PM Ignore herbiepopnecker Report Abuse You can't make corporations clean up. They simply file bankruptcy and stick the public with the bills if they're too much. If they're able, they'll hike prices and gouge it from the public like Exxon did after the Valdez spill. Oil companies do it. Mines do it. Forest companies do it. Pay all the owners a bonus and then "gee we're broke"... They need to post a bond beforehand.
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Mar 10, 2009 9:37:28 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse Bad, I believe our tax money is used for other things, like salary increases for MLA's/ministers - for everything else, Stelmach is blowing royalties, and now going into debt to fund his election promises b/c he blew all the multi-billion dollar surpluses in the past 3 yrs (resulting from royalties) & borrowed against future royalties (which never materialized) to make the promises...everyone in oil & gas knew the royalties wouldn't materialize b/c of his new royalty regime which caused the oil companies to begin canceling exploration plans back in 2006 - that's when the drilling stopped in AB & the oil companies stopped buying (the only sector pulling back now due to the recession & price of oil is the oilsands) - at the same time, Stelmach was doling out future royalties like they were still going to happen...it's against AB law to (1) run a deficit (which he's doing) and (2) go into debt (which he wants to do)...what he SHOULD be doing is telling everyone he promised money to that all bets are off until after the recession, then use all available money only for construction projects that were already deemed necessary & planned (hospitals, schools & affordable housing) - that would stimulate the economy and allow AB to emerge from the recession still debt-free...but no - he now intends to take AB into debt, using the recession as an excuse to cover up his errors in judgement over the past 3 yrs...after the recession, he will be raising income taxes to pay off the debt...
bad_driver98 Champion Author Edmonton Posts:9,890 Points:517,710 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:02:19 AM Ignore bad_driver98 Report Abuse Actually HR, the Alberta Government gets most of it's money from you and me as Income Tax... which is where they will get the money to clean up the mess around the Oilsands.
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Mar 9, 2009 11:58:06 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse gouged, where the AB gov't gets all its money - royalties from the oil companies - LOL...i.e. the oil companies are actually paying for the whole thing, directly & indirectly...
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 9, 2009 10:10:24 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse the Alberta gov't will help the clean up? ???? And where does the Alberta gov't get the money from to help clean up, for a CORPORATE mess, and primarily a foreign owned corporate mess?
herbiepopnecker Champion Author British Columbia Posts:13,621 Points:2,510,230 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 9, 2009 9:48:00 PM Ignore herbiepopnecker Report Abuse It is being steam cleaned on truckload at at time.....
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Mar 8, 2009 10:58:48 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse The AB gov't is apparently going to be helping the oil companies clean up the toxic waste ponds...I mean tailings ponds...also providing incentives for them to come up w/ other ways to produce the oil without needing tailings ponds - looks like this will be an AB only problem...
gougedQC Champion Author Montreal Posts:5,130 Points:69,885 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 8, 2009 7:59:10 PM Ignore gougedQC Report Abuse there have been plans and schemes to clean up the Sydney tar ponds since as far back as I can remember. Heaven knows how much has already been spent over the decades, and no solution found. Maybe AB (and the canadian taxpayer) will end up in the same boat. We supply the US with yet another resource, and yet again are stupid enough to get stuck with the waste problem.
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Feb 4, 2009 12:35:58 AM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse The latest from the AB Gov't (2 videos back to back)...
bad_driver98 Champion Author Edmonton Posts:9,890 Points:517,710 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Dec 28, 2008 12:40:16 PM Ignore bad_driver98 Report Abuse Sydney Sludge ponds HR, the Sydney Sludge ponds contain only 700 thousand litres and will cost over $400 million to clean up
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Dec 27, 2008 3:00:27 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse Not likely, bad...the tailings ponds can't be "cleaned up" - they're too big & there's no place on earth that could process the volume of contaminated water, so they will continue to be held in the ponds w/ the current reclamation methods being the only ones available. And gov'ts are still political bodies more interested in being re-elected than protecting the oil & gas industry - the feds will make sure this continues to be an AB gov't issue...if the Sydney sludge ponds are being cleaned up at the Cdn taxpayer's expense, it's likely either Cdns aren't aware it's happening (as I wasn't) or it is politically expedient for the feds to do it... Here's the latest on the tailings situation... And this is an article criticizing industry, gov't AND environmental groups concerning deaths of migratory birds in oilsands tailings ponds...
bad_driver98 Champion Author Edmonton Posts:9,890 Points:517,710 Joined:May 2007	Message Posted: Dec 27, 2008 11:05:41 AM Ignore bad_driver98 Report Abuse How much are the Canadian Taxpayers paying to clean up the toxic sludge ponds in Sydney N.S.? How much do you want to bet that we get stuck with the bill to clean up the ones near Fort McMurray?
Silverdog1 Champion Author British Columbia Posts:14,945 Points:1,665,165 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 27, 2008 3:16:50 AM Ignore Silverdog1 Report Abuse I can that the "Rainbow Warrior" is about to set sail once again.
galah Champion Author Ontario Posts:1,698 Points:27,060 Joined:Mar 2007	Message Posted: Dec 26, 2008 7:53:16 AM Ignore galah Report Abuse Now that massive pollution that has occured in Tennesee due to the holding ponds collapsing,will that now spur dealing with the toxic ponds in Alberta.? S##$$%%%$% can happen.Surprising little news regarding this enviromental disaster has been prominent in the newscasts.
HRTrucklet Champion Author Alberta Posts:15,925 Points:2,137,350 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Dec 15, 2008 3:48:23 PM Ignore HRTrucklet Report Abuse Suncor & Syncrude's open pit mines & tailings ponds have been up there for 41 & 30 yrs (respectively), in plain sight for all to see, and no one cared until now? Why, all of a sudden, are oilsands tailings ponds suddenly an issue? Guess as long as the oilsands were considered to be an unprofitable venture, it was OK...now that it's a proven source of oil & companies are actually making money up there, it's time for the environmentalists to get in there & try to shut it down...NOW the tailings ponds are leaking into the groundwater? Give me a break - the natives want more money from the oilsands newcomers (who apparently weren't smart enough to pay them off sufficiently like Suncor & Syncrude have for decades) & the environmentalists (who recently finished beating the Exxon Valdez to death) need a new target - hence, weeping & gnashing of teeth at Ft. Chip over "contaminated fish in the Athabasca River"... Anyone who has been in oil & gas for any length of time has seen this type of thing before - like the farmers who complain about "noise" from gas plants or (unproven) 2-headed cows from sour gas wells (which were drilled on their land w/ their approval), but only until the oil companies up the ante (monthly lease & royalty cheques) - then everything is fine - noise? what noise? environmental contamination? not here! When a certain oil company applied to the gov't to drill sour gas wells right on the outskirts of the town I live in, the town immediately opposed & townsfolk attended the hearings to object - went ahead anyway b/c the farmers who own the land backing onto the town approved it - as I knew they would - the Town was pleading w/ the landowners to not allow the drilling, but the farmers couldn't wait to get the rigs on their land so they could start receiving their monthly pymts - the wells were drilled in record time - so much for the environmental & health concerns raised by the town... It's all about the money - problem is, in the meantime, people who don't understand it's about the money get involved & could actually cause enough problems to make the money go away - for everyone...
TadeuszK Champion Author Manitoba Posts:4,718 Points:1,197,230 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Dec 14, 2008 1:42:04 PM Ignore TadeuszK Report Abuse <we need the so called cheap fuel to drive our economies> Not so. Taiwan is very wealthy. Japan became wealthy. East Europe, India and China will soon leave us in the dust. Not with resources, but with science and engineering degrees. The space program advanced the US for a while. All future wealth will come from high skill education. The oil sands only give a short term shot of wealth and only to a few. Predatory Capitalism will destroy the environment.
herbiepopnecker Champion Author British Columbia Posts:13,621 Points:2,510,230 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Dec 14, 2008 12:01:48 PM Ignore herbiepopnecker Report Abuse Don't worry. Most of them will fold during the downturn ans stick taxpayers with any cleanup cost.
Handiman Champion Author Saskatchewan Posts:17,457 Points:3,115,625 Joined:Feb 2004	Message Posted: Dec 14, 2008 10:26:01 AM Ignore Handiman Report Abuse Galah---I heard the same report and something has to done--BUT WHAT--we are going to be in a real delema---we need the so called cheap fuel to drive our economies but in the process we are putting at risk the lives and livelyhood of hundreds if not thousands or more northern inhabitants and we are not helping the enviroment or wildlife either---the FIRST decission we have to make is what is more important---the economy or living breathing live beings, animals and aquatic life---we all want to make money so we can live in comfort thus we need jobs and monitary circulation and the oil sands out here at least do that even as far away as I am 1,200 km we still get benifits from the tecnology of the oil sands, but if the toxic lakes are allowed to continue unregulated we will surely all pay the price---these tailing ponds are leakng an estimated 11,000,000 litres of toxic liquid waste into the near-by water ways and into the ground water system per day---there is tecnoligy being developed to lessen the amout of toxic water that flows into the tailing ponds but will it come soon enough and what is to be done about the leakage---these are tough issues---and I don't think anything will change as long as greed or making an income remains a priority